Perspectives

Humanising the Future of Work podcast

Episode 1: HR in disruption

COVID-19 has had a significant impact on the role of HR, but 18 months on, what are the biggest and most impactful trends that have been forced on the function? How does this impact the value HR delivers to business and where can HR bring the most value? Our experts discuss these important questions, along with the blockers HR face and how this varies across industries, and the implications of external challenges. Have a listen!

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Hazel Patmore
Director, Human Capital
Deloitte

Hazel is a leader in our Human Capital practice focused on the Future of Work and HR Transformations, primarily within the Consumer and Retail Sectors.

Nick Sloan
Director, Human Capital
Deloitte

Nick is a Senior Director in Deloitte’s Public Sector Human Capital practice with a real passion for supporting organisations to navigate the workforce challenges created by disruption in the world of work.

DH: Welcome to Season 2 of Deloitte’s Humanising the Future of Work podcast. This season, we continue discussions with experts from across Deloitte on key topics organisations face when putting humans at the heart of their work, workforce, and workplace transformations. I'm your host Daniel Hind, and along with Dougal from the podcast team, I'm joined today by Hazel Patmore and Nick Sloan who will be discussing HR in disruption.

HP: Thanks, Dan, yes. Hi, so, as Dan said, Hazel Patmore, I'm a Director in our HR space in the Human Capital Team and I focus primarily on the private sector and my absolute sweet spot is consumer and retail clients in particular.

NS: Hello, I'm Nick Sloan, I'm Senior Director in our HR consulting practice in Deloitte Human Capital, focusing on the future of HR, Future of Work, and, specifically, in the public sector, with a personal focus-in on our defence clients. That's me.

DH: Great. Thanks. So, let’s get stuck straight in. What shift has been forced on HR or the CHRO on the back of COVID? We’ve been through the immediacy of the lockdowns last year, and still, pretty much, facing the future of COVID and trying to come out thriving. But what do you think have been the key trends that have been forced on the HR function?

HP: I think in the space that I've been working with, I think it probably just reaches on from the podcast that we shared previously in the pandemic period, where Jill and Kate talked you through the future of HR. And that focus really being on the CHRO has been given a platform for the first time, probably more greatly than ever before. And actually, seeing that just take it strides forward. And actually, I'm really proud of the fact that HR has been front and centre through the pandemic to help organisations find their way through.

And I think the key things that I'm seeing, you’ll see in the press, the hybrid ways of working, wellbeing have been top agenda points. But I think the underlying themes around an organisation’s purpose, the way in which they're driving for employee experience are really the underlying themes and trends that HR leaders are having to grapple with to ensure that the future is sustainable post the pandemic.

Recognising that employees have such a desire for working for a business that has a distinct purpose and that they’re looking to drive their experience through their career with a business that looks like it’s got a sustainable future.

And I think that's something that, regardless of the pandemic, we were seeing, but I think it’s actually been highlighted and elevated as a result of the pandemic. Because people have felt the impact of wanting to work for societal purpose, seeing the extent in which the pandemic has impacted different markets and industries and sectors in different ways.

And I'm sure, Nick, you'll build on that because I think the public is, greatly, seeing that.

NS: Yes, I would just build on that. And I think you're absolutely right, Hazel. If you take us back to pre-Future of Work, and pre-COVID, rather, I think there was a sense that a Future of Work could be a threat to HR. In the sense that high levels of automation, particularly in some of these administrative tasks, outsourcing talent models.

And I think that we were always saying that, actually, that is a pessimistic view, and that Future of Work is a real opportunity for HR to step up and lead the people agenda. And that has definitely been the case through the pandemic. And to your point, given that platform to then continue and sustain that post-pandemic into the future.

And particularly around, when you think about just the pace of change, things like policy changes, adaptive working processes, and some of the things that departments have had to do, which has all been driven and enabled through the HR function. So, yes, I agree with that, totally.

HP: And I think I would say the challenges that they're facing as a result of that, as you alluded to there, Nick, is the capacity of HR is really quite under pressure at the moment. And I think that's regardless of sector. And I think it’s regardless of where you've been impacted. I think the capacity on HR to deliver not only the core basics that they're expected to deliver but over and above, to deliver the experience agenda, the purpose agenda, the hybrid working agenda, the automation agenda.

So, all of those things for the Future of Work haven't gone away as a result of the pandemic, they're still there, people are still wanting to strive for their future growth. But they're also having to compound that with having to manage health concerns, ways of working concerns. And actually, I think the HR functions are starting to feel, a little bit, the strain of that, as well.

And so, I think what we’ve talked to our clients about quite a lot about is at the start of the pandemic, we recognise there was going to be a real need of resilience. Be that how do you as an HR function support your business to have greater resilience as an ecosystem within the economy? How do you set your leaders up to have a more resilient way of working?

And how do you support your employees to work in a really disruptive environment and have the resilience to work through that?

But actually, I think build on that from resilience being the focus has tilted, also, towards capacity and how they can create more flexibility and agility within their organisation, which I think 18 months ago, two years ago, was a little bit of a nice to have if you can build some agility into your HR function. But actually, I think the need for that is becoming much greater as you realise that the workload is significant.

NS: I think the other challenge, and just adding to that, is we often forget that HR are going through this change at the same time, and often having to do this to themselves, as well as spearhead some of these initiatives and interventions that help the business to perform and maintain productivity through this period.

And so, there's something about we’ll always have something iterative about this, but HR didn't plan the pandemic and are responding to it at the same pace, in fact, often faster than the business, to be one step ahead. So, I think that has also added to the pressure of the CHRO role during this period.

HP: Absolutely. And I think my key watch-out for the CHRO is you've been given the platform, you're still elevated on the platform, but there is a slight risk that real estate might start to take the space as hybrid working becomes the norm. And the IT space around what technology is enable that. But actually, I think this is an HR agenda point around what does that mean for your culture, what does that mean for the experience you're giving your colleagues and how do you lead the way in what the future workplace is from a people perspective.

NS: That's an interesting perspective, Hazel. Because I think there's something around how does HR... There's this cross-functional approach to organisational strategy. It’s how does HR really partner and collaborate better with both the estates and the IT function to really drive the Future of Work agenda and the experience. And what all of this means for a future workforce.

So, I think the role of the CHRO and that T-shaped leadership across the board, rather than just focusing-in on the function, I think becomes ever more important as we get out of this kind of current lockdown.

HP: Absolutely. That was on our HC trends, probably, a couple of years ago, but I think this has just brought it to the fore, hasn't it? So, I couldn't agree with that more.

DH: So, there's always been this age-old debate, as long as I've been working in industry and consulting, about what is it that HR bring value-wise to the business. So, are they focused on the basics, are they focused on business partnering as the prime example? And actually, is there is an argument that COVID has refocused or pivoted that partnering element as a function and really reshaped what and how HR can deliver for the business?

NS: I was going to say, this is definitely what have the Romans ever done for us question, Daniel, isn't it? And I suppose there's something here about being really clear. Because I think when you look at previous HR models and transformation, there's almost been a suggestion that we move from operational into strategic and partnering.

And I think it’s both. I genuinely think that it’s not a one or. There is still a requirement for HR to get some of the basic operational requirements of the business, pay rations, wellbeing. Some of the stuff that is really important to people and to the hygiene of running a business and maintaining a healthy workforce.

I suppose what we’ve said for a long time is that it can't all be about the function. And for ages, the CHRO talked about getting a place at the table. And I think the key point is that you're not at the table to talk about the function. You're at the table to talk about the business. And I would separate out, it’s almost... The HR strategy is about the function. And actually, CHRO, that's your problem. Nobody around the board table wants to hear your pain, they've got their own.

But when it comes to why are we at the table, it’s the workforce and people strategy. And that's where HR needs to be absolutely embedded and working and collaborating with the business. To really think about the people and HR interventions that are supporting achievement with some of those business strategic objectives. And I think that is the difference, for me, in that conversation.

HP: Yes. I couldn't agree with that more, as well. I think the HR bits to get done, there's got to be people paid, people have got to have all of their compliance and safety and everything else that the HR function has traditionally been there for.

I think there's definitely the business partnering and planning elements that still exist. But for me, personally, I would love to see the shift in distinction to be, the HR function to think of themselves as the workforce architects.

And the conversation they should be having is for every vacancy that arises, or for every change in the organisation that needs to achieve, what’s the best thing to do from a workforce perspective. And how do you make the delivery of that outcome the greatest outcome it can be that's going to attribute to your business strategy or purpose.

And HR at the table is a great way of putting it, in terms of they are the people that should be having the finger on the pulse for what the employees are wanting. And how to get the best out of employees to deliver the business objectives.

And therefore, they are the stewards and advocates of the organisational purpose and the workforce. And therefore, the shift, for me, is actually not about an HR business partner structure, necessarily, but about a workforce architecture structure.

Thinking around the what’s the work that needs to happen, how do you do that work. And the how you do that work is people, it’s process, it’s technology, it’s by, build, bots. It’s all the component parts of how you make the delivery of that outcome using the different sources of talent and workforce means that you can have at your disposal.

NS: And, Hazel, that is where you get that collective ownership of some of those people issues, rather than it’s an HR or it’s a business, it’s a collective responsibility for workforce transformation.

HP:  Exactly.

NS: And I suppose behind that, what we’re suggesting is it requires a set of interventions or a workforce, and maybe we’ll come on to this later, Daniel, in terms of HR, but it’s much more project and interventionalist focused. And brings, to your point what does HR do for you... Well, HR has that expertise and excellence. And some of the thought leadership has the approaches and abilities to come in and support that but working with business leaders to really drive through business outcomes.

DH: It’s interesting because already we’ve touched on conflict, potentially, with real estate, moving forwards. With hybrid working. Nick, you, there, talked about collective collaboration, what’s stopping HR in leading? And almost, as equally important, how do they manage conflict? How do HR manage conflict with priorities of different C-suites when trying to drive through a Future of Work agenda?

NS: I think it’s a few things for me. I always think investment in HR in the past has been fairly poor. And I certainly focus-in on the public sector, where technology and even people development and capabilities and skills, etc. And even there, we talked about some of these capability shifts. HR has not always been given the investment to enable all of that movement.

I think there's some behavioural stuff. I think there's trust, particularly, you see that, between HR being seen as, almost, the policeman of the organisation and a sense that if you need to talk to HR, then that's a bad thing.

But also, HR often not relinquishing or feeling able to empower the business because of a lack of a manager’s ability to do this well. And that, somehow, HR need to do it because it will, otherwise, not be done to the standard, or to protect the reputation of the organisation, etc. And it comes back to that stewardship role.

I think there's resistance, as well. And by that I mean I think there's been resistance sometimes on the part of the business to take on what they perceive as historically being HR work, why am I doing your job. Rather than seeing this as good people management or responsibility for people and some of the processes behind it.

And I think on the other side, there's been a resistance, sometimes, for HR to let go of the authority and controls that they've always had, historically, within the department. So, I think there are several things like that.

Then there's a bit about often we think about this for our own business model, but it’s about that PR, if you like. It’s does the business really know what HR brings? And until you work with HR on some of these development projects, you can have a very blinkered view of the capabilities and the things that HR do.

And it’s only when you start working with HR and see some of this unfold that you realise they may not be technical specialists in deep IT architecture, but actually, they bring something quite different to restructuring, reorganising, thinking about capabilities, career paths, whatever, for our people.

And so, it’s, for me, a mixture of those things that have always held people back in the past.

HP: It’s funny you say about the police of the business. One of my first HR roles was HR Officer. It’s only when you retrospectively look at that, that seems like a strange title for an HR person to have.

NS: Absolutely.

HP: And yes, I think the build I would have on that is, my initial response to your question, Dan, was to say well, they've got to prove it. They've got to bring data to the table to show the value. Because, to Nick’s point, there's a little bit of lack of trust, and that does vary by business. There are some that have really seen the value of HR, and therefore, lap it up and want them at the table and want them involved. But I think that takes time to get there.

Nick’s point around you get that through working in collaboration and partnership to show the value. A lot of C-suites are driven by data and factual-based pointing. And so back to that workforce architecture point. If HR are at the table asking the right questions around why are we doing this, what are we trying to achieve. And then are able to demonstrate the metrics, the productivity measures, the definitions that are going to help to demonstrate how they’re achieving those targets, I think that takes a much bigger platform and gets it a lot more attention.

One of the clients we’re working with started off, as part of their employee experience journey, measuring NPS scores across HR, so Net Promoter Scores. And what’s, actually, subsequently happened is because they were bringing it to the board, periodically, to demonstrate how they're showing value within the HR function, the board’s expectation now is that every function measures NPS.

And that is now a business measure that has been driven with HR at the front, to demonstrate how they recognise the importance of experience and the value measures. In order to demonstrate, actually, work outcomes and business revenue drivers. They're able to actually correlate those through the data.

And the other way I was going to suggest is, it’s interesting you also mentioned, Nick, HR have often been challenged around, well, that's HR work, it shouldn't really be put on the line manager. And that's something that I face daily with clients, in terms of should we be turning on self-service, should we be putting more accountability or empowerment as often as is tagged. But is it really empowering?

And I think the way in which HR can address those sorts of challenges is to be much more ruthless in thinking about the workforce segment that they have. And therefore, what makes sense for those segments, rather than trying to address a blanket one-size-fits-all. So, it may, absolutely, be the right thing to do to empower line managers to take much more accountability of their people in some segments, versus others.

I've seen it in the retail sector, for example. Where there are some creative teams, buyers, merchandisers, designers in the retail sectors, for example, where, actually, the time spent on doing HR administration does not deliver the value that they need to be driving back to, directly correlating their efforts to business revenue. The same can be said in the FS industry for traders, it’s much, much more costly for them to get sitting doing a self-service form when they should be trading.

And so, therefore, picking and thinking about your workforce in different segments, what are the expectations, what are the capabilities, what are they trying to deliver, and what’s the right HR model that suits those segments. Rather than, as I say, a one-size-fits-all approach.

DH: You touched on, Hazel, there, bringing in some of the sector or industry challenges. I just wonder, more broadly, especially the difference of private sector and public sector that you're representing today on the talk. Have we any other challenges or variations that we’re seeing across these, that different industries are facing? And is there anything, particularly, from an external environment that may be challenging their thinking and having to focus on a particular area?

NS: If I look at some of our government sector CHROs and some of the, almost, perfect storm, you look at BREXIT with implications, of course, for government and policy. And even things like immigration and workforce and what that means for talent models and all sorts of marvellous stuff going on with the fallout of BREXIT, which has hit at the same time as the pandemic.

But then, we’ve also got policies that government are at the forefront of. And CHRO, therefore, very much thinking about how this applies to the workforce. But thinking about things like the levelling-up agenda. At a time where we’re saying remote working is fine and virtual has been really successful, we’re also moving jobs to East Kilbride and Darlington. And talking about having a localised workforce and localised economies and levelling up. So, there's some real dilemmas for some of our CHROs to navigate in all of that and the policies behind it all.

There's still an absolute drive on cost-efficiency. So, as much as we’d like to offer everybody great flexibility, we’d like to work from where you can, there's an agenda still to make sure that it’s all cost-efficient. And we’re using public money in the creating value for money in the most cost-effective way.

And I suppose in all of this, we still see that the agenda for government, as it is in other sectors, is most definitely focused on employee experience, Future of Work, creating the right proposition as you go forward for an engaged workforce, etc. So, there's just so many things if you sit there and look at it all that sit in the melee of things that a CHRO is navigating when starting to think through what the roadmap looks like for the organisation post-pandemic.

HP: It’s as equally complex in the private sector. I couldn't talk to every sector within it and try and give a blanket answer to that. I think it’s definitely down to sector-specific. And even within those sectors, you've got sub-sectors, about how they've been impacted by COVID. And therefore, the response is that the HR organisation has had to address.
In the world that I work in, I've got consumer businesses that are absolutely thriving in places because of where they’ve been able to respond to a supply and demand requirement of the pandemic. And I've got consumer business clients that have really struggled because they've not been able to open stores, for example, or they've not been able to sell products because they're not required at this point in time.

And so, even within sectors, you're seeing mini subsectors have a very different response at the economy and industry level.

And therefore, the HR response is varied.

I think the one thing that Nick and I have had a conversation about previously, is one thing I've been really proud of is I've seen a real shift in the private sector clients that do work with. That HR really are having those conversations with the CIOs of the world, for example. HR are often role modelling and driving forward the tech agenda. Because they're actually trying to say that we need to digitise our workplace, we need to ensure that employees are getting experience.

And part of that is the products we offer. And it becomes a product-focused HR function that I think is just about starting to be tailored and piloted in spaces. I wouldn't say I'm seeing anybody role out a full product HR operating model yet, but we’re, certainly, starting to see clients move towards that. And that integration between HR and IT is becoming much stronger.

And then I’d say the integration between HR and analytics. And when I say analytics, I'm really thinking in the broadest sense, so not just some people data that's being presented. But actually, how business leaders are asking big questions and it’s HR and other functions coming together to look at the data across the enterprise to help inform what that outcome is.

So, I’d say those points I'm seeing, certainly in the private sector. That's just accelerating at quite a growth, I’d say, in terms of CIO and CHRO relationships becoming much, much more hand-in-glove. I don’t know if the same can be said for public sector.

NS: No, and I think this is an area, certainly, that is developing, I would say, in the public sector. But I think there's a lot to learn from some of the private sector practice. Because I think when we look at the way programmes and, certainly, technology programmes and things, historically, get commissioned and sentenced in the public sector. That does seem to come out a lot from the CIO and IT world.

And often HR is seen more as a customer user of the IT programme. But I think as we’ve started to get into COVID, we’ve seen the advent of some of these applications around wellbeing, around, even, deployment and other things. I'm starting to get into technology that really enhances experience, particularly in the virtual world. I think that relationship is getting closer.

I’d love to see... And know that practice exists in private sector. You probably have an HR digital function. That is part of your HR operating model. And really thinking through the opportunities for automation, the experience, the mobile ability to really enhance and empower people to be operating in HR space whilst on the move. It’s all of those sorts of things right the way back to onboarding tools. Some fantastic stuff that we can bring now to really enhance employee experience.

And I think that that is definitely on the agenda of many organisations. I think some are making some good progress on it. Is it an embedded part of the HR operating model? I don't think yet, and that's something that, perhaps, CRHOs think about.

DH: Speaking of agendas, Dougal and I were talking beforehand, just about the Angela Rayner piece and her recent appointment into her new role. Dougal, do you want to bring some insight there?

DB: Absolutely. So, earlier on in the lockdown, so, actually, lockdown one, early in April 2020, Angela Rayner, who is a Labour MP was appointed the first-ever Shadow Secretary of State for the Future of Work. Which is a really significant thing, not only because it’s the first-ever, but also because Angela Rayner is also the Deputy Leader of the opposition.

So, it’s not that they've just appointed a nobody to sit into the Cabinet rooms and just have the role, just almost as a statement. But they've actually put one of their most powerful politicians into that role, which is a really exciting thing. And it’s really going to be interesting from now onwards to see how Angela uses that role. Also, whether or not the Conservative Party respond and put a government minister for the Future of Work. So, it’s going to be really exciting seeing that go forward.

And what it really does is actually just brings debates, political debates, lawmaking, it brings the Future of Work into the epicentre of political debate in this country. Which is a really exciting thing to happen, for the first time, really, in this country. So, it’s really exciting.

NS: I think what’s good about that, Dougal, for the public sector, as well, is it will be fantastic to get the Future of Work... There's always been attention around employee relations with trade union view of worker rights, etc., and what we’re doing to the workforce. And HR and the business trying to drive transformation. Getting the labour movement and the trade unions aligned on the benefits of the Future of Work and some of the changes and what that does for the workforce, in terms of creating opportunity, I think would be absolutely fantastic.

And something that, perhaps, that role will look at. I did I see, recently, in fact, over the past 48 hours, that Acas have released a whole set of guidance on working in hybrid remote virtual teams, etc. And starting to really, also, focus-in on some of those Future of Work issues. So, I think it’s a fabulous thing to see.

HP: I agree. And I think one of the things we found in our research for the Future of Work, probably some years ago now, was…There's a brilliant graph, which is going to be difficult to describe, where technology is driving a lot of the change that we saw in the Future of Work. People are readily wanting to adopt it.

Businesses are recognising that shift. That, actually, public policy hasn't necessarily got themselves up to speed in order to address that what is the ethics, what data we can access, mine, utilise. What policies do we put in place around the ways in which we use AI in the future and things like that.

And actually, I think that's been a bit of a tension between businesses, employees, and public policy. And so, I'm in favour of this, and my personal hope is that it really does focus on purpose, how it doesn’t just become a technology-focused piece or a real estate conversation. But is a broader conversation around driving for purpose and unlocking some of those questions around the ethics, and putting the right frameworks in without, necessarily, locking them down.

DH: What do we do as an organisation to help clients, encourage clients to change their thinking to be more future-focused and be able to move with the business? I wouldn't say react with the business but be able to move with the business. How are you encouraging those discussions in your respective areas?

HP: I think one of the responses I think about with that is it probably is the same... And I'm not as familiar with other functions but I’d imagine it’s the same with other functions. The half-life of skills has rapidly reduced. And so, regardless of being in an HR function or marketing function or a finance function, or wherever you are within the business, the level of change in the skills that you need to do your job is regularly changing.

And so, actually, we’ve regularly talked about the fact that there's not that sort of linear career for life in the same organisation. And I think that's the same to be said for HR.

So, thinking about rather than, necessarily, the capabilities you’re needing to swap out, it’s how you're continually driving skills development. Both those tactical technical skills that you need at a point in time, as well as the human-enabled skills that you're trying to enable the problem-solving creativity that can't be put into a bot or put into AI.

And actually, thinking about the continuous reskilling of your organisation as just part and parcel of your DNA. So, I wouldn't want to sit here and say we need to drive more analytics capabilities or buy loads of technology capability into HR because I'm sure that will become redundant in five years’ time. And we’ll be saying another new thing to be doing.

So, how do you build the evolving capability development and really think about what are the enduring human capabilities that you want from your HR organisation? And what technical skills do you need to build and grow and evolve around it?
I probably would have answered a different way some time ago and just said yes, we need loads of workforce architects.

We need loads more digital, we need loads more data scientists. But I've really evolved my thinking on that, to really think about the enduring human capabilities of HR that you're trying to achieve.

Those people that can be at [?] challenges with the business leaders, really able to have those leading challenging conversations to drive through disruption as much as the technical product-based skills that you might need at points in time.

NS: I absolutely get your point around this is a... Change is exponential. I think the key point about that is we’re experiencing, probably, the lowest rate of change that we’ll ever experience in our lifetime. And therefore, to try to nail a future model right here, right now would be negating the fact that it’ll be constantly evolving, and we need to have that resilience and ability to adapt and respond to that.

HP: I'm also very conscious of the fact that I've given a very woolly consulting answer. And that, actually, there's tactical needs for businesses to understand where to focus first. And I think I would bring you back to that point, which is address the questions of why you’re doing the business you're doing, what are you trying to achieve by that business, in terms of work outcomes? And therefore, where do you focus your attention on first?

And so, you help to some kind of really ruthless prioritisation, and you don’t try and solve the whole of the HR function overnight, necessarily. And using a term that we’ve often used with clients, you disrupt around the edges. So, find a space to pilot new ways of working, new capabilities development. Test it, scale it, so think big, start small, all the cliché terms that you get in the Future of Work conversations we have. Because you can't start nowhere. You can't try and boil the ocean.

And so, really, trying to think about what are you trying to achieve as a business, first. And therefore, what’s the HR function you need you need to deliver your business, rather than, necessarily, looking to all other organisations around what they've done.

NS: Part of the reason capacity to deliver feels really, really constrained is all HR change programmes seem to be all front-loaded in the first 12 months because everything’s a priority. And truly picking through some sequencing, and to your point about starting small and piloting things and building on it. I know organisations don't ever feel they have the time to do that.

But what they end up doing in an inefficient way is not delivering across all things because of capacity and tardiness of delivery, and things start to fail, and projects have to drop off. Rather than starting off with a mindset that says we’re going to have to prioritise and talk about the high-impact stuff, the legal compliance, whatever it is that we must do, and build that portfolio. And the only way you can add to that is by adding capacity. And that is either buying or growing or doing something quite different about the way you deliver it.

HP: Wouldn't it be great to be working with a client where their measure of HR success was having a bigger HR headcount and ratio and starting to reduce it as a cost. HR has been seen as a cost function, but if you can start to think about how we can shift that into a value function, by demonstrating, actually, having more HR bodies... And I say bodies broadly, as a term, it doesn't mean FTE on your balance sheet. Working towards driving business outcomes, you can demonstrate the value of that investment and be able to do more, rather than always being seen as a cost function and trying to do more with less.

DH: And regrettably, I think that brings us to a close today. I could keep talking with you both for the next couple of hours, I think, but we have to bring ourselves to a close. So, thank you once again for joining us in the discussion. Thank you to Dougal for bringing some external insight. And I look forward to speaking to you again in the future. Thanks.

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